The post in which I lose several readers.
April 5, 2008 by Maggie, dammit
A hermit crab will do whatever it takes to not be seen. They live out their lives burrowed deep inside shells, venturing out only to grab a quick drink or bite to eat when they think no one is looking, almost always at night. What I want to know is, when did we decide to “domesticate” them? Who took a look at a hermit crab on a beach and thought, “Huh. That creature hates being seen,” and then thought, “I know! Let’s pile loads of them into clear plastic show-boxes for snotty-nosed kids to terrorize!” I just want to know. Really. But it’s more a question of curiosity. I’m not feeling an intense urge to free the hermit crabs.
There is, however, something rumbling deep inside me about monkeys and vegetarianism.
Gretta didn’t have school yesterday — it was not a fake sick day, but a real honest-to-god inservice. We three girls floundered in the house a bit before Gretta dramatically announced a desperate desire to go to a pet store. Apparently some time spent among caged animals would make her feel the least interruption in her routine? Now I haven’t set foot in a pet store in 20+ years, but on the surface it didn’t sound like a terrible idea and we certainly didn’t have better plans — so we piled in the car and drove.
I don’t think pet stores are in vogue anymore; it was pretty difficult to find one. When I was a kid, we had this little hole-in-the-wall shop right in our 3,000-strong little town. It smelled like piss and fear and was so cramped with cages and supplies merely walking through it was a challenge. Our family bought a puppy from that place, and an embarrassing number of hamsters and gerbils. There were places just like it all over, especially at the mall…. But I guess things have changed. We ended up at the only one I could find, a humongous brightly-lit chain store 35 minutes from home, and set to wandering.
There were no dogs, but hamsters were still available. There were plenty of fish, from the gold ones jammed 200 in a tank to the pricier exotic ones roaming freer. There were lizards and turtles and birds, and hermit crabs. I stared at those crabs for quite a while, until Gretta tugged me toward the cats.
There were eight of them, and they weren’t for sale, they were “up for adoption for a fee.” I would have smiled at the irony if I’d been in a more generous mood, but I was still contemplating the hermit crabs and now, monkeys. The cats lived separately in three foot by three foot metal cages, nearly exact replicas of the ones at the primate research center on the university campus I toured a week ago. Of course, monkeys are a lot bigger than cats.
My own cat is lying over my shoulder as I type this, almost on top of my face. He knows he is safe with me and he’s arrogant in his security. I would likely be arrested if I decided to pick him up and slam him headfirst into the cement. That would clearly be wrong.
But would I inject him with chemicals, kill him, and then cut him open for study? Does it depend what I’m studying? What if I thought it would save your kid? What if I thought it would save mine? What if I only hoped it would, but there were no guarantees? What if I was studying not cancer, but infertility - does that change anything for you? What if I was studying depression and anxiety? What if I was studying male pattern baldness?
The FDA requires every drug that hits the market endure two rounds of animal testing. That’s the law, like it or not. There is a distinction to be made, however, between animal testing (required by law) and animal research, which is what goes on at universities and private companies all across the country. These places are not testing the results of drugs, they are asking larger questions about disease and afflictions in the name of human betterment. There are millions of animals living in labs in this country, participating in research on a mind-boggling array of topics. Scientists are endlessly hypothesizing, and your federal tax dollars are funding their quests. They are hoping to cure cancer, to develop the vaccine for AIDS. They are also studying things like stress on pregnant monkeys, and fetal alcohol syndrome. Then there are the studies on hair growth, or how siblings react when they’re separated. If you can convince the National Institutes of Health that your hypothesis cannot be tested in any way but on an animal, your research can be funded. If you can prove that it’s vital to the experiment, you can do whatever you want to that animal. You can operate without anesthesia. You can inject chemicals into the veins of babies still in utero, then kill those baby monkeys at two months old to study the effects of the chemicals. You can do whatever you need to do to answer your question, by law. Animal Cruelty statutes do not apply to lab animals.
These researchers are not monsters. They believe they are furthering the human cause. I don’t believe they are monsters either, although some animal rights activists do. My point is, what do you believe? Have you ever thought about it?
There was a videotape that made the rounds a few weeks ago, an expose of the beef industry that led to the largest beef recall in U.S. history, 143 million pounds. The synopsis of the video is this: In order for a cow to be slaughtered it has to be standing. The video shows cattle handlers using brutal methods like bobcats to shove sickened cows to standing position so they wouldn’t lose money, and as a result we were being sold diseased meat. One of my friends was particularly upset over this video. We discussed it over hamburgers.
I want to know, what exactly is so upsetting about this video? Is it just that we fear we’re eating diseased meat? If you watch the video, can you answer honestly that it’s the potential disease that is so upsetting to you? If not, then…. what? Did we not know that hamburgers come from living cows? If we know this, is it the brutal treatment of the cows in the video that got to us? Would it be okay if they led the cows to slaughter more respectfully? Just what is it about this video that so disgusted us? Is it the diseased meat, or is it just that we don’t want to see the images of the suffering cows?
Most people don’t know that thirty miles from my home there are approximately 5,000 rhesus monkeys undergoing research and testing. There are countless more cats, dogs, pigs, guinea pigs, squirrels, rats, and mice. Let me make something clear: I’m not making a judgment on animal testing here, I’m honestly not — that’s an argument for another day, and I guarantee you it’s far more complex than your gut is telling you it is. What I am judging is the fact that nine out of ten people don’t know about animal testing, aside from buying products that guarantee they weren’t sprayed in the eyes of bunny rabbits first. I didn’t know about this sort of research before I was asked to look into it, not really. Nearly everyone who’s asked me what I’m working on is taken aback when I tell them, completely shocked. They didn’t know — but why? It’s not like it’s a secret. It’s a lot like my bafflement over the beef expose - I can see why vegetarians were upset, but why were the rest of us? I think it’s because we accept these things if we don’t have to know about them. We don’t want to see.
Monkeys get the most attention because they are so much like us. Many people would be more upset at the idea of testing on monkeys than, say, mice. Some animal researchers themselves even make a distinction between marmoset monkeys and rhesus monkeys. Others will test on rhesus monkeys, but not chimpanzees. They’ve drawn a line for themselves personally on what’s okay and what is not. I’m guessing there are no longer pet stores on every block because it’s a PR disaster waiting to happen. Even at one of the largest chains in the nation, they apparently decided it was no longer okay to sell dogs. Cats were not for sale, but up for adoption. Everybody else is still fair game. They’ve drawn a line.
Looking a monkey directly in the eye is akin to saying “fuck you” to another human being. Who knows, it might be the same for a hermit crab — their behavior certainly indicates it. And yet, I stared and I stared at that crab. The monkeys last week? I looked away. Gretta spent her own money on a hermit crab yesterday and I let her bring it home, but I haven’t eaten meat in almost two weeks.
Apparently I’ve drawn a line. I’m just not sure I’d know how to defend it if I had to.
Would you?
Have you read “Stiff” by Mary Roach? In it she describes what is done to human bodies, as scientific research, after death. And she also reports on the work of a scientist who is trying to achieve head to body transplants, you know, so that a head that contained a living brain but an unhealthy body could be re-attached to a healthy body with a dead brain. He’s doing the experiment with dogs, basically cutting off the dogs’ heads and then putting them on another dogs’ body. The crazy part is that he’s actually managed to keep these transplanted dogs alive for hours.
I will admit that I am firmly in the camp of people who would just prefer not to know, because knowing brings up too many questions I’m not prepared to answer. I dated the son of a dairy farmer once, though, and he always told me that cows are really stupid. I assume he would know better than me. Which is why I still enjoy my occasional bloody steak.
But it’s not a defensible position, I realize.
I’m your family, and of course I am still speaking to you!
This is a huge issue, I’ve really been thinking about the food side of it. How very distant we are, by design and by choice, from our food. I believe that we have a personal, political, and moral responsibility to know where our food comes from. To take into consideration the environmental cost of factory farms and buying organic asparagus from Argentina in January.
What could possibly be more important than what we eat? It’s our very survival we are talking about it. I can’t believe our willingness to trust marketers and corporations to feed our children.
Ok.. stepping off of soap box.
I recommend “The Omnivore’s Dilemma” by Michael Pollan
This has really been a topic of discussion in my corner of the world lately, synopsis of Omnivore’s Dilemma (from Max) and an old article about Barbara Kingsolver’s Animal, Vegetable, Miracle most recently. I grew up on the farm and saw and participated in the butchering of chickens and an occasional hog or cow. But right now I wouldn’t want to even clean a fish. If I was providing my own food would I feel differently? Not sure. But I am reminded of reading about the way Native Americans would speak to the animal and thank it for it’s meat and hide before killing it. It’s one more aspect of the discussion.
I’ve drawn my line. No more eating monkey for me.
Love , Dad
Hi Maggie. I think I may even have more than two cents this time. I am not a giant meat eater for many of the afore mentioned readers, but, at the same time, I am great friends with some of the university scientists you describe. We have been having this discussion for years. I firmly believe that the scientists are doing what they do to help, not harm and can not be grouped with for profit warehouse slaughter houses. I have seen a grown man cry when he found out he lost a research cow. I think the real response has to be respect. Respect your food, the land, the water, other workers and don’t consume products from companies fail to do so. I pay a lot of money for my meat, because, I choose producers that respect there animals - I always think to myself: “This is what is should cost for this kind of food.”
A much lighter-weight comment than those previously, but my $0.02 nonetheless.
My wife has been a vegetarian as long as I’ve known her (good gravy! almost twenty years now), our kids are largely vegetarians (we’re not nazis, sometimes if they see dad or other people eating meat, they want to try it) and I eat much less meat than I used to, just because of my home environment.
Morally and logically, I agree that eating meat is wrong - I just enjoy cheeseburgers and carne asada tacos and burritos a little too much to give it up outright.
On the other hand, I’ve gotten pretty good at cooking with tofu, and I’m proud of that and I don’t feel cheated if I eat a meal that doesn’t involve flesh.
I quit eating fish after watching one be cleaned. I don’t think I’ll ever visit a slaughterhouse for the same reason.
I’m a slave to modern medicine for a number of reasons, so I don’t think you’ll ever hear me rail against medical testing - even though, if I think about it too much (like now, darn you) I can’t make it any better or just in my mind than the experiments Dr. Mengele and his colleagues performed on many of my distant kin.
I ultimately agree with Gwen above - I just don’t want to know.
Gawds Maggie.
For me the video was so disturbing because of cultural beliefs about respecting all living creatures. And understanding the lengths to which people go to made money money money.
I have no problem eating meat - but in my own shopping, I buy meat only from the coop, a majority of which is from a local supplier, who I trust not to be mistreating animals like that. Could I be wrong? You bet. I would like to eventually work my way to a lifestyle whereby I either buy all a majority of my food from people I know or get food from my own garden or meat that my family has hunted. Wouldn’t be all that hard actually.
As for the animal testing. Sigh. I have a few guilty pleasures that I know are likely tested on animals. A lipstick I am particularly fond of that I buy at Walgreens (2x per year). A conditioner I buy when I am poor that makes my curls go crazy. Other than that, I buy everything at the coop. Where I know they pay attention.
I live as healthy a lifestyle as I can, use herbs and homeopathy, take good vitamins (which has made a HUGE difference in my health) so as to avoid medications, and try to understand how treating my body in a whole picture sort of way and being healthy from the inside out means less need for crap to treat the outside of my body. I avoid television and mainstream magazines and the mall so as to avoid all those messages about all the stuff I “need”.
Gawds, Maggie.
PS - And if you lose readers over this, fuck ‘em.
I have less words than the others. I think you and I have a LOT in common when it comes to thinking about these things. That said, I don’t think I want to eat meat for a while either.
Well, you certainly haven’t lost me. Maybe there’s something you could write that would so turn me off as to turn me away, but I can’t imagine it. I’m too addicted to your fine, fine writing, your wit and the turnings of your fabulous mind. Just so you know.
Animal testing and research doesn’t shock me — I’ve been reading about it for years and years now — but it still really upsets me. I was even an anti-vivisection activist for a while.
I used to bring the high school seniors I taught on college visits. They were in a program for kids who wanted to be doctors, so we visited a lot of campus labs … where I sent them in to take the tour without me. (One dead, opened up and pieced apart cat on a table was enough to tell me I didn’t ever need another one of those tours.) I think seeing ‘friendly animals’ as one student described them in various states of dissection definitely turned some of my pre-med-wannabe students into English majors.
Food’s different, though. Big business meat production is just as inhumane (and more) than what’s shown in that much-circulated video. But the local farmers who sell at my green market? Not so grotesque or cruel. I grew up spending summers on a working farm, so the idea of killing and eating animals doesn’t shock me, but I appreciate the importance of treating those future-food animals with dignity and real care.
I still eat meat, though not very much or very often.
What’d Grace name her crab?
I couldn’t finish the video either.
Definitely no more beef for me.
I’m with your dad. No more monkeys for me either.
He really is a funny guy.
I know someone who works at the place you’re talking about, she’s a primate anethesiologist. I know she feels like the work she’s doing there is very valuable (studying Parkinson’s and Alztimers) and I tend to agree.
I guess my opinion on the whole thing is similar to Lea’s and like Lea I go out of my way to purchase local grass-fed beef and meat for my family.
I respect people who are vegetarians, but I know for me it’s not a good choice, my naturopath even told me it would be a bad idea for my health.
sorry for all the typos etc. I’m at work and have been interupted about 20 times now!
I am 100% for animal testing that is medical related. Not cosmetic.
Vegetarian living is important to me, but I’ll never rub it in anyone’s face. I am more concerned with animal welfare than rights,
I have little respect for people that have little respect for so called ‘non-sentient’ beings, and I believe you can have it without being veggie.
I’m all over the place. But fuck those you lose.
Very insightful and thought-provoking Maggie….
My husband was raised on a farm. He saw numerous animals slaughtered and doesn’t ‘get’ the whole current state of affairs with vegetarians/PETA? etc… He views eating meat a normal part of the circle of life. I think being raised around a farm creates a different perspective from us city slickers.
Recently, a PETA supporting friend and I shared a cheeseburger at Chili’s. I asked her how she separated her involvement with PETA from eating the cheeseburger (I was friend enough to wait until the next day). She said, “Please don’t make me think about that!” End of conversation.
I think this ostrich stance is some sort of coping mechanism. I had a cheeseburger again today. Please don’t post about this again as I don’t want to find this in my Google Reader after partaking in a juicy flame-broiled Whopper ….
Maggie-There is a fiction book–a kind of sci-fi fantasy novel called “The Sparrow” which rocked my world on some of these questions you are raising here. Its about first contact with beings from another world but also about the assumptions we make about species and the “pecking order” that has naturally emerged. Its fascinating reading. And these questions–they are good ones–tough ones–hard ones. I adore you for raising them.
Well you didn’t lose me… but I’m not gonna watch your video. It’s kinda like the whole sexual offender list. Some things I’d rather not know details about. Sometimes ignorance truly IS bliss. Not that I’m ignorant, really. Perhaps I just wish I could be.
First of all, I’m totally impressed with all of you. You’re apparently way more thoughtful than the people I’m running into in real life. I’m not taking a stand here, I’m just asking you to think. Clearly you already are.
Gwen: I haven’t read that yet but I’ve been told to. Fascinating.
Aunt Jenn: That’s another one on my pile. Especially because it talks about sexy corn.
Mom: Exactly. We have a disconnect between what we take in, and where it came from.
Dad: As soon as we get you to quit eating bald eagle we’ll be good to go.
Hlawnicki: I know they’re good people - I’ve been meeting with them and I can tell, for sure. I also have a very close family member who does this kind of testing. If I’ve lumped them together with the beef industry, it’s not in outcome nor intent. It’s in this belief we all subscribe to that we have an unquestionable access to these animals. I’m not saying I disagree, I’m just saying I want people to know.
Jeremy: I certainly empathize with the rationale that if this can save me or my kids, I’m all for it.
Lea: I’m trying to interpret your “Gawds.”
I’m guilty of buying lipstick from walgreen’s, too. I totally admire your culture’s respect for where the meat came from.
Girlgriot: First of all, you made my day. Second? The crab’s name is Moe-Moe. I’m thinking she doesn’t mean after the guy at the bar in the Simpson’s, but you never know.
Sue: It’s powerful stuff, isn’t it. But why?
Gotomyhappyplace: Funny “ha ha”, or….
Maria: Medical of all kinds? Do you draw any lines? How do you define medical?
Wonderer: Yes. It’s a true disconnect, for sure. I embrace it myself.
Meg: I heard about The Sparrow! Now I have to read it for sure. Although I don’t know if I can handle it right now, my brain is so full of all this. And I’m hungry for a Whopper myself.
Lara: I couldn’t agree more. Ignorance is bliss. That’s what it’s there for.
Oops, I missed Chantele!
Yes, they are doing work on Parkinson’s at the U, though I’m not aware of any alzheimer’s studies… Regardless, I agree with you– these are good people who believe strongly in their work. No doubt about it. There are many, many questions that arise from what I just said, though.
Wow - Really tough subject - I don’t have an answer, even for myself. I DO eat meat. I don’t think I could NOT eat meat, but it does bother me the way we treat the creatures we depend upon for food. I think we’ve gotten so far away from where our meat comes from that we don’t want to know about the questionable ethics of how its done. I’m with your mom on this; I often compare the more spiritual approach of the Native Americans to butchering to the horrific methods currently in use. It has driven me to find alternative resources for what meat we do buy, and we just don’t eat as much as we used to.
As for the animal research and testing - My personal and unpopular opinion is that there are too many people in the world. Disease is Mother Nature’s way of keeping the species at a healthy population. Morally, I don’t feel we have the right to use other animals to further our own over-populated and destructive species. The arrogance of the human race, in thinking they are somehow more worthy, more deserving to live, at the expense of other species, has always caused me great discomfort and shame.
What can be done is still at a grassroots level, but the more people who raise hell over it, the more the industry will have to pay attention. Consider the organic food business boom - 20 years ago, you would have had limited resources for buying organic, now its on the shelves at your local grocery store. What you buy sends a message, loud and clear, and if no one buys the commercially processed meat, the industry has to change to keep our business.
you know, i have really studied the beef issue, and what bugs me most is the way that the cattle industry hurts people. they have wanton disregard for the workers– illegal or not. too many people are being hurt or killed in the process of feeding others. naturally, it’s the cows that people think about, but really, IMO, the workers deserve better.
oh I could be wrong about the Alzheimer’s, the girl who works there is a friend of a friend and she was telling me about her job over margaritas at a girls night out so just be glad I remembered the Parkinson’s lol.
This post made me very sad, not because of it’s content-though it is heartbreaking in and of itself- but because of my feelings of helplessness and hypocracy.
I knew drug testing was out there, but have been cowardly avoiding digging too deeply. I buy my shampoo and stuff at the health food store, all botanicals, no animal testing, kudos for me. But have I given up my ibuprophen? My Nyquil? My antibiotics? As you said, where do you draw the line?
I wrote about giving up meat, spurred on by that beef video, and I made it exactly 5 weeks. I ate meat at a dinner party, because I felt guilty about being high maintenance, and from there it was easy to back slide by bits and pieces. I feel like a hypocrite. And you would be really suprised at the number of people who were actually hostile about the idea of giving up meat. WTF?
I think mostly what I feel,what alot of people feel, is overwhelmed. It’s so pervasive, food and drugs, clothes, shoes, hundreds and thousands of products that have become seemingly indespensible are produced at the expence of helpless animals. Where indeed do you draw your line? That is what makes me sad. Even by giving up meat, have I done enough?
Amazing post, Maggie, and I know none to easy to write. The research alone would keep me up nights. Thank you for making me think, and it’s back on the vegetarian band wagon again. Perhaps I’ll make it another 5 weeks.
Chanda my dear: I talked to a woman who is quickly dying of ALS (Lou Gehrig’s disease), and she is against animal testing. I asked her if it bothered her then to take the drugs that have been developed on animals. She said you can’t think of it that way. She said if you want to look at it that way, then none of us can drive on any roads in the south because more often than not, they were laid by slaves.
Maybe you could look at the fact that you take ibuprofin/antibiotics/nyquil as an opportunity for you to be grateful for the advances made at the expense of animals, not as an opportunity to beat yourself up?
When I was fourteen I *accidentally* saw a sheep being slaughtered. When I walked around the corner all I saw was a man tearing its skin off.
I didn’t eat meat for two years after that.
I don’t eat meat on a bone because it reminds me that I am eating an animal, so yes, I guess the mentality (at least for me) is out of sight, out of mind. If I start REALLY thinking about what I’m eating, my stomach starts rejecting it. Of course, if I start thinking about lettuce as a leaf, I can’t eat it either.
I like to think I’m pretty educated about animal research and testing and none of what you said surprised me. In my pre-child life I was a much bigger animal advocate than I am now, and it’s not that I don’t still care, it’s just that my priorities have changed. For a long time I wouldn’t buy Proctor & Gamble products because they had HORRIBLE practices (at least they used to) and I felt like my contribution against the cause was no contribution at all.
I really don’t know where I’m going with this because I’m not sure how strongly I feel about it anymore. That sounds really pathetic, but it is what it is. Does it upset me? Yes. Does it make me thankful for medical advances? Yes. Talk about being on the fence!
Ahhhh, and there it is. Perspective. Which is probably key in trying to come to terms with the world in which we live. I suppose all we can do is make the changes we can realistically live with, stay as informed as possible, and keep our perspecive. One of your commenters said it best, it all has to do with respect for our worls and all the creatures that inhabit it. But damn girl, beating myself up is one of my favorite passtimes!
Hey, Heather again, I didn’t think for a second that you lumped researchers in with factory farms…I think some people do though.
One more thing…it is going to sound odd, but, while living abroad I was served a lot of ears, snails, snout, ostrich, and rabbits - it made me think of eating more and varied meat sources to lower environmental impact.
My husband has a food science degree and is always going on about lysine and how it is really hard to get it without meat.
I’ve been meaning to tell you that your dad is a big monkey eater, but then he went and quit. So now your dad is a quitter. ;p
There’s comfort in things we don’t know about, makes life easier. But I do believe a know research scientists who are very close to their animals and feel they are serving the greater good but what they do in the lab. But like I said, not knowing is an easy path to take.
Dad: Since you’ve only just learned about the
and the 
emoticons, I felt the need to explain to you that Flutter, by doing ;P, is winking and sticking her tongue out. Possibly at you, but most likely at me. You’re welcome.
Noble Pig: I agree. And I think that, probably like the farmers, the closer they are to it and the more experience they have the easier it gets? They certainly have a perspective like none of the rest of us have, and that can’t be discounted.
Chantele: The U is famous for a lot of its aging studies so that might be what you’re thinking of. They do a lot of work with caloric restriction and aging. Turns out if monkeys don’t eat as much they age better. Huh.
Liv: That’s fascinating, I never even thought or heard about it. Where did you first learn about that? Come on, give me an excuse to buy some more books. Please!
we_be_toys: I can’t get behind you on the overpopulation thing because it makes me feel like a hypocrite — why not just kill myself and my family? Why is it only the populations that most commonly suffer (AIDS in Africa, etc) that seemingly deserve their fate? And if the unthinkable ever happened to my family, there’s no way I could ever comfort myself with that argument…. That said, you’ve touched on the crux of the ethical debate by saying it’s arrogance that compels us to take advantage of animals in medical testing. That’s what the ethicists say, too.
I couldn’t agree more about the way we treat these creatures destined for food, and the vast disconnect we have between what we eat and where it came from — I agree with the idea of gratitude among Native Americans, just like Lea and Mom above. Also an interesting point about the relative newness of the organic foods movement. An excellent reminder.
Hlawnicki: I don’t think I could eat that stuff — which is another interesting point the ethicists make (what makes it OK for one population to eat one thing and another to eat another thing, each of us disgusted by the other, if we’re all human? It’s crazy.) Interesting about the Lysine, too. I’m wondering what my diet will be lacking if I only eat cheese? I eat allll kinds of cheese at least…
Chanda: The constant and quick beating yourself up thing is why you identify with me so.
Nat: I’m the same way with the bone thing. If I think about it, any of it, my stomach turns. Lately I’m asking myself if my mind and body are trying to tell me something worth listening to. The other interesting thing about the medical advances is there is a group that argues that the animal model is not a good one for the human model, and there are several books and medical journals that back it up. That’s why I ask, “what if you only hoped it would but there were no guarantees?” It’s very complicated.
gawds as in i can’t imagine the world you’re living in right now. gawds as in i find my way to what i am comfortable with in a very quiet sort of way - through a subtle testing of the waters to see what feels better. i shop at the coop because it makes me feel good - i like the community there, i like the energy of the place, i like the workers. i haven’t had to be slapped in the face like you have to be because of your research. gawds as in that was an awful flippin’ video, and although i eat local when i do my own shopping, i don’t always eat veggie when i am out at restaurants and i really want to make a commitment to that. and it read the omnivores dilemma - it’s been on my “list” for some time now. sigh. too much ugliness out there.
Lea: Ah. I see. Yeah, it kind of gets at what everyone has been saying about ignorance being bliss. The good news about this job is that I get to become a mini mini mini expert on a variety of topics. The bad news about this job is that I get to become a mini mini mini expert on a variety of topics. I always think of it like an actor playing a role, and how that role consumes them for a short time and they become that character. I’m definitely consumed right now.
You certainly won’t lose me as a reader over a post that makes me — forces me — to think.
When I was young, one of my favourite babysitters went to a slaughterhouse as part of something to do with a class of hers in high school and I remember her telling me about how upset she was by it. She stopped eating meat after that, and although I couldn’t wrap my head around it at the time, I knew what she had seen really affected her.
This is a subject that, admittedly, I don’t know a lot about, because of fear. I’m afraid of what I’ll uncover, find out, and how I’ll feel about it afterward. Like others have said, not knowing is an easy path to take…and I guess that’s the path I’m on right now.
Maggie - first, your dad is damn funny. Wonder where your sense of humor comes from. Second, I didn’t watch the video but did see the story on the wire and watched a few clips - made my stomach turn - but has it changed my eating habits? No. Your writing brings to the fore a very important question, and no, I don’t think you’re going to lose readers - at least I’m around for the long haul. What should animals be used for? God, I don’t know - my theology and ethics challenge me on this, but how do we shed what our society tells us is good and ok. We are creatures (ouch - bad choice on that) of habit. But if we are to change how we perceive living things, we certainly need you, and others like you, to point things out to us. Thank goodness you’re doing a story on animal research (you are, aren’t you???) - and thank goodness you haven’t given up your part-time job of keeping us informed on your blog!!! You da bomb, baby!!!
Good news!!!!!!
Lysine is present in cheese! (and milk, yogurt, nuts, fish, eggs)
Let me know if you want me to make you dinner.
Your (mostly) Vegetarian Aunt
DAMN good post, woman.
As the host of a regular (and quite delicious) neighborhood hermit crab boil, and a dyed-in-the-wool creationist to boot, you can rest assured that I have visited this repository of touchy-feely, leftist claptrap for the very last time.
(This message, ironically, resulted from letting 1,000 monkeys type randomly on my laptop. I must go clean a considerable mess now. But I feel my point has been made, and my business here finished.)
mamatulip: Thank goodness you’re staying, I’m an awfully big fan of your blog. That’s the thing, soooo many of us WOULD feel strongly if we saw the things we don’t want to see — even if we’ve made up our mind that they are necessary “evils” if you will. That’s what’s so incredibly interesting to me about this whole thing.
Scott: You are officially my favorite person of the day. Yesterday it was GirlGriot. Today it’s you. You knocked her right out. (But you really shouldn’t shove people.)
aunt Jenn: THANK THE BABY JESUS. Yes, please give me recipes. Until then, I’ll be here gnawing on this hunk of monterey jack.
sspare: thank you, darlin’.
Ray: You are so fugging weird.
I don’t think you’ll lose any readers over this, Maggie. But in general, people don’t want to know all kinds of things. It’s always been that way. Not to sound all doomsdayish but it may well be the undoing of us as a nation if people don’t get their heads out of their butts about a lot of things.
BUT, as to the topic of animal testing, it’s something I don’t think a lot about. I’m only one person on the face of this planet and I can only do so much, so I mostly concentrate my own efforts on human suffering. My big issues are poverty, children, illiteracy…so I do what I can do in those areas.
I do love animals, though, and as a family we do think about what we eat and how it gets to our table. We try to stick to mostly organic food, and to avoid the organic conglomerates like Horizon who may not really be adhering to organic principles in their treatment of animals. I’ve been looking into sustainable food sources and that’s a goal of mine, to one day be eating food from only sustainable agriculture.
I think it’s a great topic you brought up, it’s important to get people to think about things. May be kind of Pollyanna but I do believe that mostly, the world changes one person at a time.
Here’s one to think about and a pet peeve of mine: restaurants that advertise that they serve “totally natural chicken without any antibiotics”. Uh, it’s always been illegal to use antibiotics in chicken. We are not stupid, and I don’t eat at restaurants that use that marketing ploy.
When you get sick of being a veggie, we should totally go in on a cow from Carrie’s cousin’s farm like she said. If he is anything like Hot Rod, I know that piece of meat was treated princely…
Oh, wanna go for a walk on the bike trail tonight?
HOLY SHIT DUDE YOU’RE IN TOWN!! I can trace IP addresses, you know! Sneaky bitch… I’m calling you right now! WHOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!
Yeah, OK. I know quite a lot about animal testing and yes a very, very small percentage of it is done for flippant and narcissistic reasons. The fact is that the vast, vast majority is and has been done to improve our quality of life. Little things like making sure we don’t die in infancy of pesky little things like rubella and mumps and measles. Most of it is done in our endless quest for youth and long life and a reasonably healthy lifestyle. Most of it is governed by extremely stringent standards of ethics.
Now, I know that you’re not going as far as the animal rights activists do and that’s a very good thing. I’ve spent the last three and some years dealing with these nuts on an almost daily basis. They bully, threaten and terrorize scientists who are just trying to do what you pay them to do. I know that you’re not going that far and I know that you’re not advocating their agenda. But, Maggie, it’s a slippery slope. Be careful.
I was originally going to post this in my name, but I know from first hand experience that animal rights activists have been known to hunt down and harass their detractors. So, I’m posting anonymously. But I know, again from experience, that you - as a veteran cyber detective - will be able to work it out. Let’s just keep things on the low down.
Haven’t lost me as a reader at all - but got some debate! And I’m with you on those old school pet stores - blech!
Anonymous: I’m glad you mentioned the reasons why you posted anonymously. A pretty good chunk of the article I’m writing focuses on exactly why researchers are hesitant to speak to journalists, and that it’s not a fair assessment to claim they won’t because they have something to hide. Animal rights activists have a very checkered history and many scientists have been forced into secrecy.
At the same time, I’m intrigued by just how much animal rights activists are demonized, and what a dirty word activist has become. Just as most of the scientists are not monsters, most of the activists are not breaking into researchers’ homes, either. It’s an important distinction to make.
Again, just one more fascinating dimension to the debate.
You gave me a pretty good clue with your cyber detective comment but I don’t want to email the wrong person — so email me!
Maggie, there was a case in Britain where animal rights activists dug up the grave of a Guinea pig farmers recently departed mother as a bizarre type of protest. That’s actually a little bit worse than breaking into peoples’ homes. At one of the universities in Britain, activists targeted builders of a building that was actually going to improve living conditions for research animals. They stalked and threatened builders families’.
Just two examples. Lest you think I’m exaggerating, here are the sources:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/4176094.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/12/nalf12.xml
I know you aren’t exaggerating. I also know they just aren’t all like that. And further, I know that it doesn’t matter whether they’re all like that or not — a story like that sticks in the mind of a researcher forever and ever and ever, as well it should. As awful as those things are, though, I think it would be just as awful and impacting to be visited at my home by a “peaceful” protester. So to me, the extremes don’t need documenting - it’s all bad. I understand completely why they don’t want to put themselves out there. Still, and I have to say this, a person who feels in his or her gut that this type of research is wrong, or who even questions it, shouldn’t be lumped with grave-digging crazies. That’s wrong, too.
Just to add to the controversy since I haven’t seen it brought up…
If you have decided not to eat meat or not wear fur based on animal rights, will you still be wearing leather shoes and belts? carrying leather purses and wallets?
I brought this up to a friend who chastised me for wearing a fur coat, yet she was wearing a leather jacket.. um, leather just has the fuzzy part removed hunny, it’s still the same thing! or are inherently “cute and fuzzy” animals more worthy of protection than big smelly cows?
Hey Maggie, will you point us to your article when it’s done? I’d love to see the finished product and see how this issue crystallizes for you in writing. Myself, I’m not quite ready to *think* about it in such depth, if that makes any sense at all. It probably doesn’t. You know what they say, ignorance is blass. But your post is definitely thought-provoking and I will bookmark and re-read it as I give more thought to the ramifications.
(Does this mean no more Butterburgers???)
But what am I to do with the squirrels that are eating my home’s wood siding ? Questions , questions , questions ;p
Love , Dad
I recently read “The New Christians” by Tony Jones. He mentions visiting a chicken slaughter house where more humane methods were being implemented. The chickens are placed on a moving conveyor in brackets that attach to the chicken’s feet, holding them upside down. They are then drug through a huge pool of electrified water, shocking the chickens into unconsciousness. The workers then grab their heads and . . . well you probably can complete the picture. This plant, a major one, slaughters 135 chickens per minute. Every hour. Six days a week.
When his group of research asked the middle managers about the practice, the response was an overwhelming “Don’t ask about the chickens!”
His point is a theological one: “The church that doesn’t challenge its members to face the core ethical issues that confront them every day at work is the church that has abdicated its responsibility.”
There is much we don’t want to know, so we don’t dig too deep. That could lead to thinking and reasoning and - God forbid - lifestyly upheaval.
I am not a vegetarian. Neither is Jones. He, nor I, have no axe to grind. But thinking about these things and finding answers to the hard questions is a challenge we must face - and let the chips fall where they may.
Interesting post, Maggie. It’s why I come here. You challenge me, and I appreciate that.
Keep it up.
Brian
I think a lot about what humans choose not to see. We don’t look at homeless people, either. At least, not in the eye. We don’t look at gang members. We don’t look at the woman paying with food stamps in the grocery store. There are so many things that many of us don’t want to know.
I grew up in a 4-H family. We routinely ate my 4-H projects (a series of black angus heifers). They were delicious. I was not morally ambivalent, they had good lives in which they were not mistreated, and then they died, fast.
I feel a lot more morally ambivalent these days, thinking about the factory farms where most of our meat comes from, and the way animals are treated in them. The sad fact? Animals in labs are treated better than most of the animals we eat every day without thinking twice about their suffering.
And I don’t have any answers, either.
Have you stumbled across this?
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mexico/stories/MYSA093007.01A.horseslaughter.3496288.html
Very disturbing. I couldn’t bring myself to look at the photos.
Wow, look at the response! I wasn’t expecting the animal rights activist angle, but I will confirm that it is a real problem for some of my lab dwelling friends. Obviously, it is a small percentage that are violent, but, I tend to equate them with anti-abortion activists (better I lump the dangerous ones in the same subgroup in my mind).
Now how does that stir up the lefty pot?
Did I hear that you eat monkeys? My husband (now known food scientist) was born in Africa. He says that they didn’t eat monkeys there, so you must be going way out of the way.
That is a crock.
I have worked in the Biotech industry for 10 years and have NEVER seen any cruelty at my company! I hate when people like to preach and have no idea what really goes on.
We mostly test drugs for cancer. Would you want one of your family members, especially your child to die because you wouldn’t allow them to take a drug that was tested on animals?
If it wasn’t for animal research we would probably all be dead anyways! Have you, or your children or pets been vaccinated for anything? Then you support animal research, so there.
Anonymous: Which “that” is a crock? I’m thinking you didn’t read this post but rather skimmed it, and made your own assumptions based on your extensive personal experiences — which I can understand. People who work in the animal testing industry are constantly having to defend themselves and it’s got to be exhausting.
First of all, I think I’m far from preaching. I go back and forth and I ask people to think, that’s it — not people like you who do the work, but people who don’t even know the work exists and may or may not appreciate where their medical benefits are coming from, nor the price. Second, I make a very clear distinction between the type of work you do (which is the same work one of my very, very close family members does, and which is required by law) and the work that goes on in universities (not drug testing, but research of all kinds.) Third, I never once say the animals are treated cruelly within their cages. I also asked questions like, “what if you thought it could save your children?”
This kind of reaction, one so venomous and almost blind to what I actually said, is what I’ve run into on BOTH sides of the issue in my months of intensive research for this upcoming article. I don’t know what I’ve decided for myself personally on the issue, but if there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s this: I have zero hope for any kind of middle ground.
Because I don’t have your real email address I can’t say these things to you in a non-public forum, but I wouldn’t mind extending the conversation if you wanted to email me.
O so brave anonymous poster, if you are so convinced of your ideals than why do you hide behind your cloak of secrecy? My mother has been in the biz for 20 years and in case you haven’t heard I am Maggie’s husband. We are grateful for what all medical researchers do, but I believe there is a bit of guilt in your tone. WE are glad there are people like you and my mother out there to give us meds to make us better and keep our kids safe. Thank you for your deep and investigative post.
Maggie,
We have had this discussion and I still don’t envy you the task of writing this, this is such a wide open area of discussion. I have 2 things to say to people, if you don’t like the way that slaughter houses work then don’t eat mass produced meat. Go to the local Butcher and have only local raised meats. They cost more but I am convinced what you get back in taste is more than worth the extra cost!
As for the animal testing issue, if the testing would have given me one more day with any of the several family members I have lost to cancer, I would gladly hold the needle and do the injections myself, I am selfish and love my family that way though…
P.S.
I am with your Dad though, No more Monkeys for me! And Let him know eagles taste allot like wild Turkey.
Mr. C
I wish I had the stomach and brain for this discussion. I am wholeheartedly committed to trying to give my kids the safest diet I can, feeling in my gut that the junk added has grown considerably since my pot growing parents raised me in Eugene, Oregon. We buy local, have gone down to one car and try to buy organic in the store. The thing is, while I avoid additives, hormones etc, I also avoid thinking too much. Like other commenters, I don’t want to know exactly what happens between pasture and plate. It’s lazy and as another person said, indefensible. That said, I read this post and I am thinking about things. No promises other than to say I’ll keep thinking, damnit, Maggie.
I had no idea that the FDA requires every drug to have two rounds of animal testing. Requires Every drug? That blew me away. I hope you will let us know when the article will be out. Oh and tell your dad once I started to feed the squirrels they left the siding alone. They like bird food and unsalted peanuts. lol (He is so funny.)
I eat meat, and I like it. Sure, I’d like the meat we eat to be as humanely treated before death as possible, but when it comes down to it, I’m not likely to stop eating meat. Then again, I’m not likely to watch things that will make me grossed out enough to stop eating meat. I am an ostrich, and I guess I like my head in the sand on this one.
This really is a tough subject and one that does not have an easy answer. You’re damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t, in my opinion.
I mean, I do not have a problem eating meat, but I have a problem with animal cruelty like in that video. Up until the animals are led to the slaughterhouse they should be treated with respect. Given food, water, shelter. That particular video makes you wonder how the cows got to that point to begin with?
Animal testing….whew…THAT is a loaded subject there!!
I have to put this in the pile of “things that are too big to think about right now”.
Far from losing a reader, you’ve picked up one…uh, that would be me. (C: I happen to see this as a necessary evil, but I’ll admit you are much more educated about this than I am. Your opinion is very well thought out and you’ve made an informed decision, so on one really has anything to criticize.
I do agree with your dad though–your post has motivated me to remove monkey meat from my diet. (C:
When I saw your dad’s comment I thought, “Why is my dad posting here? He doesn’t even post on my site.” It’s exactly the kind of response he would have had!
I have wavered between veggie/omni my entire life. I’m mostly seafood now with the very occasional consumption of air breathing animals. I know that there will not likely be a day when humans abandon their desire to eat other animals. I accept that, but after hearing Temple Grandin speak, it is certainly unacceptable to treat animals inhumanely prior to slaughter.
As far as animal research; I can’t even type the words without my brain malfunctioning and tears welling up in my eyes. Who among us has never had (or known someone who has) the benefit of receiving a drug or treatment that was developed using animal research? On the other hand, there is a reason we were designed to die.
Don’t make me think.
Ummm…
I meant, “but after hearing Temple Grandin speak, it is certainly unacceptable to treat animals inhumanely prior to slaughter, IN MY OPINION.”
maggiedammit,
well i see i missed most of this boat and don’t want to clutter but:
1) I agree on the “good thought-provoking questions” are NEVER gonna drive me away.
2) they ARE good thought-provoking questions.
3) I dated a vejudgementalist and his little boy (poor thing). When with me alone in the Pacific NW, Dad suddenly found “well maybe a little salmon would be okay” never mind that he literally had divorced his first wife over daring to find his child a piece of salmon. anywho, another story. my point actually is it did make me think about all that. cause the reasons - health, moral, buddist-spirit-like are compelling not to if we’re going to do what really seems best for us all.
4) that said… uhh, I’m in the “poster child for research for HUMANS” having lost a father to cancer at 12. I actually did this spiel in high school a bunch of times (”sorry, animals all well and good but come ON!”
god i was precocious.
5) that said, your question on what if it was for fertility or male-pattern baldness is excellent. kind of like would you eat a polar bear, a butterfly. nope but bring me a cheeseburger.
6) much much much lighter note… i LOVE that your parents both post here! as “mom” and “dad”.
guess i had something to say. so glad i found you. err, meg did and told me about you.
cheers to you. keep it up. “comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable” right?
washwords
http://washwords.wordpress.com
Where the hell have I been? I agree with Miss Britt on this one — it’s a lot to chew on (an awful pun, I know).
[...] this is in preface to the topic at hand, a blog post that Maggie at Okay, Fine, Dammit wrote earlier this week. Maggie is an exceptionally good writer and her post reflects her skills. Like any good writer she [...]
Hey Maggie,
Un-anoning. I have thought about your article and the subsequent comments long and hard and decided to write a response specifically regarding animal testing. It’s something I feel strongly about, largely because of being in the line of fire of some of the nuttier nuts on an almost daily basis: http://www.chrisdellavedova.com/2008/04/08/science-tuesday-in-response-to-an-animal-rights-apologist/
Nothing personal, so don’t take it that way, K?
By the way,FYI,I wasn’t that last anonymous poster, I prefer to keep things a bit more diplomatic. But, in his or her defense, it can be a bit scary to being a working researcher knowing what these people are capable of - hence the “cloak of secrecy”.
Oh, I know you weren’t that anonymous person. I’m a sleuth, remember? That person, very predictably, has an IP address coming from one of the largest for-profit drug-testing companies in America.
Besides, I can’t hear you ending an argument “so there”.
Thanks for giving me more credit for rhetorical flair.
Ok, after reading this, and all of the comments, I have to regroup. The main question, as I recall, is why did that video upset us. It’s true, I know little about animal testing, and thought that it was done much more rarely than seems to be the case, however, I am totally grateful for that research. As to how our food is treated is another thing all together. I come from a family of farmers, I understand very vividly where food comes from, and have never had a problem with that. I do have a problem with the animal “factories” that exist. It is all about the money, and like others have already said, shows a complete lack of respect for the living creatures that are in their care. My dad has helped to butcher hogs, and cows and we have used the meat, I need meat. On the bone or off, I don’t mind. I don’t like tofu, and with my hypoglycemic nature, I need all the protein I can get, but I digress. When my dad saw this video, it made him sick. I do not have a problem with raising animals for food, but this is not what the video was showing. This is showing mistreatment of animals, and that is always wrong. Whether it is a cow that will be used for food, or a dog that is a mistreated pet, or a panda bear who is having it’s habitat destroyed, the mistreatment is what I have a problem with. The usage of animals for human betterment, including our food, is a personal question I guess. But it seems that these animals can serve their purpose while being treated with respect and kindness.
So, great post, great responses, that’s my two cents.
I’m late, but in response you your response -
Medical - no lines drawn. Anything that can benefit the health of a human warrants animal testing.
Good for you.
You’ll find now that you can never go back to your old way of thinking.
It’s kind of a curse. I equate it to The Matrix. Taking the pill and Knowing, or not taking the pill and remaining in your blissful happy world.
You’re strong enough. Good luck.
I’m not sure you’ve drawn a line at all. I think maybe you blurred the line.
There are no answers to your questions, only more questions. Personally, my searches for morality have only taught me a tolerance for ambiguity.
I’ll readily admit I haven’t eaten meat since I was 6 years old, but I won’t defend it.
very interesting post.
I am the woman Maggie mentions above who is dying of ALS and who nonetheless opposes animal research, and I do so because I want to die with my integrity intact. To have a disconnect between what you KNOW (even if you don’t WANT to know it) and what you CHOOSE is just too tough when you’re looking death in the face.
Belated thanks for the article. Is thinking about these things a substitute for action? No. But it’s a place to start, wherever you end up. Not long ago I looked at the work I was doing for a defense contractor, and while I’d tried and was successful at staying away from things that killed people, I kept on thinking about it and eventually decided it was wrong and stopped. Other people will think about it and make a different decision. But let’s never become people who don’t think about things like this. Not thinking about it means not being open to growth, and not growing means starting to die inside. To me, anyhow.
You have raised a whole army of questions and right now they’re all attacking my brain..but here’s one answer I’m sure about: I’m fine with an animal being killed so that I might eat him. I’m fine with killing a worm, by putting him on my hook to catch a fish, which I will then kill and fry and eventually eat. I think most people - even some vegetarians - aren’t necessarily horrified by the killing of animals to eat. The horrifying factor seems to surface when large companies are disrespecting the process, when waste is involved, when screwing with nature is involved and when cruelty is thrown in the mix. It seems that we are all (vegetarians and meat eaters) somewhat disgusted with the gluttonous, greedy, manner in which big business is operating period.
As far as the animal testing..it feels wrong to do it for cosmetic reasons..but it feels less wrong to do it to cure cancer. When it comes down to brass tacs, my sick family member’s life is waaaaaay more valuable to me than a monkey’s life. And I don’t think that’s at all hypocritical. Don’t we do lots and lots of tests and clinical trials on sick humans? Don’t people with terminal diseases sign up for experimental drugs that they know just might kill them? And isn’t the purpose of all that to further our healing knowledge? I think that’s the key - the ends have to justify the means. It must be a worthy cause, because torturing monkeys to perfect the newest developement in hair plugs is just sadistic.